Exile Game Studio

HarrierPotter · Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: Social Class redux

Many of you will remember the first go-round with one of my pet projects -- social class in Ubiquity. It lay fallow for a long time, but it's back again, and much expanded.

Ubiquity Social Class 2.4

Now it's not really meant to be used in a HEX-like pulpy setting, so don't think of it like that. It changes the nature of the game. I've lived with Ubiquity for a lot longer now, and I still think the original approach of Class as a Primary Attribute is the way to go. It does shift the meaning of some Resources a bit, and well, you'll see... Anyway, feedback welcome.

(EDIT: updated to v2.4)
_________________
- Daniel Potter (MYTHIC ERAS)

LOCATION: "Back in Nagasaki / Where the fellas chew tabaccy / And the women wiki-waki-woo"

madwabbit · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Social Class redux

demon_llama · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:55 am Post subject:

printing. i'll read it during my drive to the big city this morning.
and i do think that social class can be a great standard in pulp RPG.
consider:
smokey bar. interior. evening.
detective hammer is chilling with some of his rum buddies, when he locks eyes on a dame walking in. tall. average looks. wearing a trench coat.
he says "now what's a high class doll like her doing in a place like this?"

there are many things about the "pulp" setting that have "high-class" elements to them, conisder the character of Margo Lane in the Shadow. high class looking lass even when she was digging through books at the courthouse.

the FRPG day 2010 adventure was set in "...a gala event" in NYC. rich and famous were there.

Zeppelin travel. fine dining high in the skys. a staple for Pulp adventures, was frequently a trip for the wealthy.

ut oh, i'm rambling again.
i'll chime in on my read this afternoon.
:::ramble mode off:::
_________________
...the rich

HarrierPotter · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject:

Note that in the crowd size table under Precedence, the "Difficulty Mod" column should be labelled "Penalty" instead.
_________________
- Daniel Potter (MYTHIC ERAS)

LOCATION: "Back in Nagasaki / Where the fellas chew tabaccy / And the women wiki-waki-woo"

HarrierPotter · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:55 pm Post subject:

Updated the original post to download v2.4. Some tweaks and additions made today:

CLASS 5 and CLASS 6 have been redesignated "Aristocracy" and "Royalty." I forgot to do that after I added the ROYALTY Talent.

AFFABLE and SLUMMER Talents have been reworded so that both the character and those he's dealing with ignore Class penalties. It's what I meant to being with.

(Talent) INNOCUOUS
Unique
Prerequisites: None
Your character is able to fade into the background, even in the absence of a crowd.
Benefit: Your character can pretend he belongs in a certain situation, a valet at a gentlemen’s club or a gardener on an estate, for instance. Unless he does something obvious, he won’t be noticed for a number of minutes equal to his Intelligence. Every minute after this period there is a chance someone notices his presence—make a Con roll versus a Difficulty of 2; every additional minute, make another Con roll, increasing the Difficulty by 1 each time.
Normal: Your character is automatically noticed as not belonging in a given situation.

(Flaw) LOUT
Your character has a way of letting an inappropriate or telling remark slip at just the wrong time. Whether it’s contempt for the working man or just some off-color remark concerning a lady, it will be heard by all the wrong people and betray your character’s origins. You earn a style point whenever you let a comment slip at a particularly inopportune moment.

WEALTH: Modified monetary progression
_________________
- Daniel Potter (MYTHIC ERAS)

LOCATION: "Back in Nagasaki / Where the fellas chew tabaccy / And the women wiki-waki-woo"

demon_llama · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject:

with the restriction about one level higher or lower on contacts (you're a 4, so you can have a 3, 4 or 5 contact). you might want to have a "friends in low/high places" talent or such.
_________________
...the rich

HarrierPotter · Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject:

Doc Nova · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:48 am Post subject:

Interesting...

But I have a few comments/questions. And let me preface this with the understanding that this is nothing more than my opinion and that what works in one game may not work in another.

This is an attribute that's purchased with resource xp? Odd...why not just make it a resource with it's absence indicating middle class (and use a Flaw to indicate lower class)?

I think it's placement as a primary attribute puts more emphasis on social class than is present in the "Holywood" pulps, plus the mixing and matching of rules there runs counter to the universal use of Ubiquity's typical rules set.

However, I am also of the mind that Contacts, Fame, Rank, Status, and Wealth cover everything you'd need to cover to represent high, middle, and low class, myself. Furthermore, the restrictions and multiplications of skill and resource cost due to Status seem unnecessary and simply an added complication to character generation. Why is Academics more expensive to learn for lower class folks? Couldn't the character's background have placed them as, perhaps, a child of a teacher who fell on hard times and wound up destitute? This seems arbitrary and not supportive of the pulp concept.

While it is clear that considerable thought and effort have gone into the Social Class rules, personally, I don't see the necessity of them. Certainly, the resources of a socially-driven pulp game may need more teeth and additional supportive talents, but the need of an additional stat that operates on several rules outside of any other stat seems unwieldy and unnecessary. I would rewrite the Talents that are most liked as resource-affecting Talents and Flaws and eliminate the rest.

Finally, I certainly don't mean to offend, as the work and thought behind the rules are apparent and hope that my stance is taken as constructive rather than deconstructive.

Doc

HarrierPotter · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:45 am Post subject:

HarrierPotter · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: additional Talent thoughts

Yep, quoting myself.

HarrierPotter · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:45 am Post subject:

You know, aside from cost analysis, I just remembered that the MENTOR, with no Class restriction for taking one, is one of the reasons I ditched the cross-Class Skill Talent.
_________________
- Daniel Potter (MYTHIC ERAS)

LOCATION: "Back in Nagasaki / Where the fellas chew tabaccy / And the women wiki-waki-woo"

Nestor · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:37 am Post subject:

I've stayed out of this discussion, since I'm tentatively in Doc's camp on this (though perhaps not necessarily for the same reasons), and didn't feel I had anything to contribute.

I do feel compelled to bring up a point to consider, though. I have nothing against exploring ways to expand Ubiquity, but a word of warning, please.

There is a certain tendency, when discovering a new system that one loves, to want to use it in every game and situation one encounters.

In my experience, though, I've found that the more a system tries to be encompass multiple discrete genres, the less it's able to do a specific genre well. I've not too long ago severed my long-time relationship with a favorite game system (which shall remain nameless) mainly because I found the authors' attempts to "universalize" it were demoting the specific genre concepts that had attracted me to it in the first place.

For me, one of Ubiquity's major strengths is its ability to model high-octane action/adventure. As much as I like it, I wouldn't want to use it to run, say, a heavy-intrigue scenario, involving social commentary or verbal skullduggery. As an example, I could see playing Ubiquity Star Wars, but I'm not sure Ubiquity Star Trek would be that good a fit.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's great to see the enthusiasm in using and playing Ubiquity, and in finding all the ways that the system can be used to have fun. But beware of the urge to make it "all things to all games" lest you lose what makes the system great in the first place.

<looks down in confusion>

All right, who put this soapbox here? Wink

_________________

"I've got a degree in kicking arse and I'd have a doctorate in not giving a damn if I'd bothered to attend the ceremony."

madwabbit · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject:

Nestor · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject:

Doc Nova · Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 pm Post subject:

No offense was taken at all, HP, and thank you for the direct response.

Again, however, I'd argue that everything you need to emulate social classes is already present in the game without the added stat, but that is just my take on it. But then again, I have always been of the mind that the fewer mechanics you have to deal with in a game the better as they have a tendancy to restrict and slow game play with unnecessary rolls and rules.

I also have to agree with Nestor. Making a game "universal" can have the opposite effect from what is intended, while putting genre focus can help sharpen the rules and their implementation. Obviously, that's not what is happening here, especially since the settings most frequently sited (League and Space 1889) are both very pulpy, but it is a notion best kept in mind when thinking of alternate/house rules. Furthermore, I feel it necessary to point out that at no time have HP's comprehension or "credentials" with the rules ever been questioned...although, even if they had, even Gygax made some bad rule calls from time-to-time. Familiarity does not necessarily mean correct.

That said, to help return this to the real question at hand: the presentation and effectiveness of these rules. Yes, they would help emulate social strata, but some further discussion as to how/what can be influenced and dictated by successful Precedence rolls would be handy. Is this a limited form of mundane "mind control", and if so, to what extent? Perhaps this could be further bolstered with a "Fan the Flames" Talent to incite (or quell) riots and the like?

Further, I would challenge the "Allies must be of the same Class" and ask why? Why can't a wealthy/influential character have a "blue collar" buddy? Similarly, why couldn't they have lower class followers? In fact, it could be argued that you should be able to get more lower class followers due to your wealth and influence. Likewise, Rank should generally ignore Class. Perhaps not entirely (especially in a strict Victorian game), but military service has often been a means to "rise above one's station". Conversely, I would argue that Status and Wealth should be limited to Class, or, borrowing from the skill multiplier due to Class, should have their cost increased when going above your Class. Of course, certain concepts should cross this out, such as a low Class thief who has just made the strike of a lifetime. Or what about the lower class character that "fakes" it for enrollment into an organization?

Doc