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the Evil DM



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man, I feel one of those "Canon VS. Non Canon" threads starting.

Quick, somebody call Gary Gygax!
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madwabbit
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Evil DM wrote:
Oh man, I feel one of those "Canon VS. Non Canon" threads starting.


Oh, let's not and say we did, mmm'kay? Laughing
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Gimp



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With how I've run games through the years, I'd be amongst the first to say no game has to run the way a company pictures it.

I've just never liked adventures that require a specific tone to be playable.

If an adventure requires a large scale 'canon' to work, it limits playability. The more I have to rework the adventure to fit my group's world, the less effective it is for me.

I may love the idea, but the adventure becomes only a skeleton I can pick over instead of a cool addition I can tweak and throw out when I'm short on time.

Exile has given us a large tapestry to work with, without being restrictive on what we can create. Any adventures they publish, however, follow the same strictures I mentioned. The more I would have to change my group's world, the less effective the adventure becomes.

If a fan adventure has home brewed rules for characters, I can use them, but unless the amazing happens and those rules gel with Exile's, I'm stuck not using Exile's, or making players change their established characters that have grown through those home brewed rules. I don't like making a player change what they have worked to create.

That's fine if it's what a group wants, but I don't see Exile's site as the place to proflugate material that could hurt Exile as a company when they publish rules for the same concepts.

If someone wants to post their awesome concept for major rules additions, and Exile is willing to let them, that's fine. It's between them and Exile. I just believe that such stuff should be posted as an alternate world idea instead of as HEX rules.

Critters are critters, and only show up when the GM wants. Equipment and such gets used up or broken. Neither stays any longer than the GM wants if they conflict with new rules or get out of hand.

There aren't too many ways for a character to be unmade or changed back.

I'll give Exile the first shot at new rules areas that will change characters made for their game. My group has their own world, but I believe common courtesy, if nothing else, should give Exile first shot at new rules ideas for it. They've given us plenty to play with for now.
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the Evil DM



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gimp wrote:

I'll give Exile the first shot at new rules areas that will change characters made for their game. My group has their own world, but I believe common courtesy, if nothing else, should give Exile first shot at new rules ideas for it. They've given us plenty to play with for now.


But by giving us a forum to discuss these things openly they are in a sense at least giving us their blessing. if they really felt that anything tweaked from their system needed their ok then they wouldnt make these forums and their headings available, they most likely have taken the old TSR of the 90's route and hunted down anyone who wrote anything about their games on the net and threaten them with legal action.

were talking here, nothing more. we are hanging out and discussing EGS, HEX, Pulps and gaming. these forums provide EGS with a look at what their immediate fan base is up to, and maybe from time to time they may run across a nugget of an idea or a piece of advice that might have merit, but all in all we are all just hanging out and talking. Which is why it's my opinion that if I want to write a post on introducing a Mana based magic system, Elven Bladesingers and Atlantean cybrog technology, i should be able to without having to wonder if I'm sabotaging the game system.
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Wolverine
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Evil DM wrote:
But by giving us a forum to discuss these things openly they are in a sense at least giving us their blessing.


One thing I've noticed over the last few years is that companies that allow open, and creative, discussion about their product on their own forums tend to be the ones that do well.

A good example of this is the Spycraft forums which are packed full of fan-created material. With the move to Spycraft 2.0 and the splitting from AEG, the new site even has a built-in Wiki to allow material to be collated in one condensed form. This means that a new player to the game has a wealth of information immediately available to them, as well as being plainly able to see that there is good player support.

I'm not suggesting we set up a Wiki over here, just that we keep doing what we're doing - talking, creating, spreading the love. With the first printing selling out and a second printing and .pdf on the way, this will help encourage new players to stick with the game and even join in the fun.
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madwabbit
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Evil DM wrote:
Which is why it's my opinion that if I want to write a post on introducing a Mana based magic system, Elven Bladesingers and Atlantean cybrog technology, i should be able to without having to wonder if I'm sabotaging the game system.

If I see one more mention of Elven Bladesingers, I will END you, palooka. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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HarrierPotter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Evil DM wrote:
But by giving us a forum to discuss these things openly they are in a sense at least giving us their blessing...

Since this is at least the second time I've seen a quote like this, I think a clarification is needed. On the forums, anything is fair game, absolutely, but the discussion was started in relation to downloads (possibly fan-made) being made available from the official HEX pages. For that, you would definitely want some guidelines. They are two different animals.
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the Evil DM



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madwabbit wrote:
[
If I see one more mention of Elven Bladesingers, I will END you, palooka. Laughing Laughing Laughing


I see you have run across them as well.

I was thinking of giving them AK-47's and Giant space hamsters to ride. they could be a nomadic plains tribe in my Hollow Earth.
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madwabbit
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Evil DM wrote:
madwabbit wrote:

If I see one more mention of Elven Bladesingers, I will END you, palooka. Laughing Laughing Laughing


I see you have run across them as well.

I was thinking of giving them AK-47's and Giant space hamsters to ride. they could be a nomadic plains tribe in my Hollow Earth.


And now I KNOW you are taunting me! It's ON, buddy, it's GO-TIME! Laughing
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JohnK
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo, Gimp,

I gotta start deleting stuff from this post, as it's getting rather long and convoluted.

Gimp wrote:
JohnK wrote:

Yeah, but at that point, how many spearate sections do you set up for other specific areas of interest?


I don't know how many game worlds Exile plans, but within HEX the question remains one of where to look or post? Is an adventure an expedition resource, something for the gamemaster's lair, or a file in the design bureau? An adventure is an expedition resource for GM's to use designed by a player.


While this is certainly true, it applies to a lot of threads that have been posted to these forums, where sometimes it's just dificult to find the material on a specific subject because it's not in a given thread or it's not in the thread one expects it to be in.

Personally, I would have said that the adventures and scenarios belong in the Gamemaster's Lair section, since they're meant for GMs and not for players, but that;'s just me.

Snipping stuff here...

Quote:

An adventure posted to the site should not require players to change their vision of HEX to suit another group's. When a group allows Darth Vader and his stormtroopers to take over inner Earth, that's no longer the HEX world, but an alternate Ubiquity world that should be acknowledged an alternate world.

New rule ideas for creatures from Skull Island or insanity effects are tools a GM can add or ignore.

An adventure that requires a major change in how a group views and uses HEX should come from Exile or within their group rather than another player group. Something the writer thought was great, but another group realizes too late will completely destabilize their campaign, should not be a possibility.


This whole point here is about canon and non-canon material. Stuff like Darth Vader doesn't belong in HEX, but nothing says a GM can't do that in their oiwn campaign.

You need to remember, too, that adventures posted to the site will always be based on the GM's campaign. To make them appeal to the HEX masses, one has to make them more specific to the general HEX environment rather than the specific game campaign. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

JohnK wrote:
Gimp wrote:

Why ever not? By its very definition, whatever you do in a campaign of HEX is going to confl;ict with whatever I do at some point, and when you factor in all the various GMs and the like, well... I have plans for Easter Island, and something that looks remarkably like a Dalek (no plot connection there and the Dalek is a weird science invention), so that will conflict with your campaign. The only "real" campaign of HEX is the one that presumably Jeff runs, and that;'s the official one that will appear in the rulebooks. So...


There is room for conflicting campaign ideas. If you write up an simple adventure for your Daleks, and post it, I can decide to use them or not as a new creature type.
If you write up your Daleks as controlling inner Earth, and all your adventures are predicated on and must reflect that, I'm forced to accept your interpretation of HEX, or lose access to your adventures without rewriting them, which limits them as a resource.


Ah, but see, the Daleks (probably only a single Dalek, anyway) would only serve as a plot device for one scenario, not for a campaign of them, since I'm trying to run HEX, not DOCTOR WHO (hmm, Ubiquity rules for DW, who'd have thought?). And to be honst, Gimp, I wouldn't post the scenario with the Dalek(s) as a general adventure, since it is specific to my campaign of HEX...
and not meant for general consumption, per se.
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JohnK
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hullo, Tim,

Salem Saberhagen wrote:

And, to be honest, once you've paid your bucks it's your game and you don't even have to use Exile's ideas if you so choose. If JohnK wants his Hollow Earth overrun by steampunk Daleks, then so be it, and if he writes it as an adventure or a campaign I probably wouldn't run it as written but would love to read it for (a) an insight into how other people are running the game and (b) anything I can 'borrow' for my own game.


And those two points are the primary reason for the existence of forums like these, for posting all sorts of adventures that might not fit in with everyone's ideas and all sorts of other valid points.

Well said, Tim. Smile
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Salem Saberhagen



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnK wrote:
Well said, Tim. Smile



Considering this thread started with one of my ideas being branded as "terrible", I think I've come out of this quite well Laughing
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JohnK
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Salem Saberhagen wrote:
JohnK wrote:
Hullo, Tim,

Well said, Tim. Smile


Considering this thread started with one of my ideas being branded as "terrible", I think I've come out of this quite well Laughing


Yeah, you have...and the discussion has had some very interesting insights in terms of the folks who discussed the topic. Smile
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Gimp



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've enjoyed several debates here, because people actually take the time to think about most ideas.

There is a growing disparity after the length of this discussion, though, as HarrierPotter noted.

Throwing out ideas for new stuff I've never seen as a problem. I have Wargods of Aegyptus figues, as well as several others, that will be appearing in my HEX world. Every campaign world will be different, and that's part of what role playing is about: collaborative creation within a group.

I'd love to see JohnK's Dalek. I like to hear people's thoughts about their HEX worlds. I see good in ideas thrown out for home brewed rules, because they may help Exile polish theirs based on fan response, or give some GM's ideas to tweak what they use to better suit their group.

In the end, we do this for fun, so we should enjoy ourselves.

My concerns were solely over downlodable adventures posted on the Exile site. I would like to see that happen, because it would relieve some of the pressure on Exile to publish faster over better, and it would give players more to play with.

Under those auspices, I don't see home rules with a major lasting effect on a campaign as appropriate.

New creatures and such would be a major boon. I love the Skull Island creature thread.

New rules that would be hard to unmake, like specific Atlantean language rules, should stay in the discussion area, and not be part of fan adventures posted here.

A fan adventure that uses a moon for sky pirates in the inner Earth is workable, though it loses appeal for groups that don't use a moon.
If those sky pirates are a huge force that rules most of inner Earth through super science, it again becomes less useful, because it forces other groups to adapt more outside influence on their game.
If those sky pirates use home brewed rules for psychic power skills, it becomes inappropriate to post on the Exile site because it forces the use of an outside rules set that will cause issues when Exile publishes theirs.

Fan adventures posted on the Exile site need to be general enough to fit into a broad range of player group's games, and need to refrain from adding new rules.

Creatures and equipment are not a problem unless they are designed poorly, and even then are easier for a GM to shift and alter. New rules should stay in discussion areas.
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jcombos
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gimp wrote:
In the end, we do this for fun, so we should enjoy ourselves.


Thanks, Gimp. This echos my feelings exactly.

When it comes to official vs. unofficial material -- and I do think it's an imporant distinction to draw -- I'm a big fan of both. There is a place for both of them at the gaming table and I want people to feel free to throw out their own ideas for Motivations, Flaws, Artifacts, etc. Personally, I get a huge kick out of the fact that so many of you are inspired by the game to create your own stuff and your creativity, in turn, inspires me.

As for fan adventures, I've given this issue a lot of thought. I'd like to see your adventures made available to help out and/or inspire other gamers. And, since they are your games, you should feel free to make them your own. Set your adventure in your own Hollow Earth or stick to what I've written. It's all good.

With that being said, I think we could post adventures for download as long as we indicate that these are "fan adventures" and therefore unofficial. In order to do that, however, adventures would have to go through Exile to get approved before being put up. This means that not every one submitted would go up, but those that do would be the ones that fit best with the game, making them semi-official in a sense.

Make sense?

Jeff
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